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While most of us would agree that we have seen significant innovation in fintech and banking over the last decade, we still don’t really have a new framework for how we look at banking.
My next guest on the Fintech One-on-One is someone who has thought deeply about innovation in banking and he has lived it as a co-founder of some of the biggest names in fintech. Jason Bates is currently the co-founder and Deputy CEO at consulting firm 11:FS but he is also a co-founder of both Starling Bank and Monzo, two of the big three in UK fintech.
His framework of four layers for retail financial services provides an interesting perspective and a possible foundation for future innovation.
In this podcast you will learn:
- How Jason first got involved in fintech.
- What it was like in the early days of Starling Bank and Monzo.
- The founding story of 11:FS.
- How he described 11:FS today.
- The difference between digital banking and digitized banking.
- The four different layers of retail banking.
- What we still need to work on in digital banking.
- An explanation of the “Jobs to be Done” innovation philosophy.
- The best ways to apply AI to banking.
- The state of fintech in the UK today.
- Comparing the US and UK fintech landscapes today.
- What Jason is looking at as far as 2024 fintech trends.
- What he is most excited about for the next three to five years.
Read a transcript of our conversation below.
Peter Renton 00:01
Welcome to the Fintech One on One podcast. This is Peter Renton, Chairman and co-founder of Fintech Nexus. I’ve been doing this show since 2013, which makes this the longest running one on one interview show in all of fintech. Thank you for joining me on this journey. If you liked this podcast, you should check out our sister shows The Fintech Blueprint with Lex Sokolin and Fintech Coffee Break with Isabelle Castro, or listen to everything we produce by subscribing to the Fintech Nexus podcast channel.
Peter Renton 00:39
Before we get started, I want to remind you that Fintech Nexus is now a digital media company. We have sold our events business and are 100% focused on being the leading digital media company for fintech. What does this mean for you? You can now engage with one of the largest fintech communities, over 200,000 people through a variety of digital products, webinars, in-depth white papers, podcasts, email blasts, advertising, and much more. We can create a custom program designed just for you. If you want to reach a senior fintech audience, then please contact sales@fintechnexus.com today.
Peter Renton 01:21
Today on the show I’m delighted to welcome Jason Bates. He is the co-founder of 11:FS, and also co-founded two of the biggest names in UK fintech, Starling Bank and Monzo. So we do talk about the early days at those companies, what it was like, we obviously talk about 11:FS, what they do, but we dig into fintech innovation in general, where it is happening today. What is really going to happen, how are we going to get there, he talks about the Jobs to be Done innovation philosophy, which I didn’t know much about and learned a lot there. We also talk about the state of the UK fintech market compared to the US. He gives his predictions for 2024 trends, and much more. It was a fascinating discussion. Hope you enjoy the show.
Peter Renton 02:15
Welcome to the podcast, Jason.
Jason Bates 02:16
Good to be here.
Peter Renton 02:17
Great to have you. So let’s kick it off by giving listeners a little bit of background about yourself. You’ve got a very interesting background, I’d love for you to hit on some of the high points of your career to date.
Jason Bates 02:31
Depends how far back you want to go. But I guess most applicable to this, I’ve spent probably the last nine years designing, creating launching, new digital banks and propositions pretty much around the world. So that started with Starling and then Monzo. And then I co-founded 11:FS, where we’ve been working with the big incumbents on projects like Mox in Hong Kong, Mettle for RBS NatWest in the UK, banks in the Middle East in the US, in Europe, all over the place really.
Peter Renton 03:07
Well, before we get into 11:FS, I do want to go back and talk a little bit about Starling and Monzo. What were the early days like there? I mean, Monzo was actually had a different name, if I remember right, I think it was Mondo. What were those early days like insofar as, was there a sense that this was going to be a really important company and an enduring brand in the tech space?
Jason Bates 03:31
It was quite a strange story. I met Anne Boden when she was CIO of AON, a massive insurance company way back in the day. I think it was my first role, when I was back at Accenture, was actually working for a year at AON. So I met Anne there and something like 10 or 15 years later, she came out of the blue, passed by my LinkedIn profile. I was like wow, okay, I reached out. And she basically said that she’d been head of Transaction Banking at ABN AMRO. She’d been COO at Allied Irish bank, she’d been, she did a lot of things in the meantime. But she was working on new projects, and maybe I’d be interested in talking about it. So I met with her at a hotel in London, a hotel lobby. And, and she pitched me this idea that she was going to start a new bank, which at the time sounded insane. There weren’t really any new banks. You know, they’d been the big five in the UK for as long as anyone can remember Metro Bank had had been started but that had a crazy billionaire founder. Before that, and there was nothing. There’s no new banks being made. So when she’d explained to me that she was going to start a retail bank, I thought that was quite amazing. An amazing idea. So I…She must have pitched well because I came home and said to my wife like I’m really thinking I might get into this and you know, there might be a new bank to start. She thought that sounded amazing. What wife doesn’t want her husband to start a bank? But what was less enticing was that there was no money, no, no investment, nothing on the horizon. So it was basically a, you know, give up the work you were doing and just pitch in. And basically, by pitching in, you could earn yourself a, you know, a position as co-founding. So that’s what I did. And while you know, subsequently, everything’s great. And it’s been a, an amazing roller coaster. At the time, and probably for the first nine months, not being paid and really spending down your savings is a tough, a tough call. So, yeah, it was quite an interesting start.
Peter Renton 05:41
What about Monzo? What was the beginning of that like?
05:44
Yeah, I mean, we got a group of people together, wrote regulatory business plans. This was Starling, recruited a whole group of people, one of whom was Tom Blomfield, who’s the, who was the CEO of Monzo. There was a well publicized, big corporate falling out, and a group of us left and started a new bank. So back to the beginning, a call to the FCA writing documents, again, from scratch, and, and away you go. So it was interesting. Well, it was more than interesting. It was one of the most fabulous times in my career, you know, you would talk to customers in the morning, work with amazing, world class engineers on building new interfaces in the afternoon, talk to the FCA about something in the, you know, in the evening. To be able to reach out and touch all sides of banking at one time to really look at what the business model might be like, and how you want to recruit people, to get funding, to be writing regulatory business documents. It was everything at the same time. So while a bank might have 10/20/30,000 people at that point, you know, there was only a handful, and so you really got an amazing feel for what retail banking is all about.
Peter Renton 06:08
Right. Right. Okay, so then what? Why did you go from there to 11:FS? What was the opportunity that you saw?
Jason Bates 07:11
Well, I had a nice slab of founders equity. So that was safe. I realized that the thing that I loved most was the first year. The first few months of starting and creating new propositions. What is the proposition you’re trying to create? To triangulate? How does it make money, solve customers problems, make its niche in the market? How do you kind of pull those things together? I wasn’t getting on so well with Tom at the time. So I did that classic thing that you do, where you look at your address book and say, well, who would I really want to work with? Like, if I can, if I can do this elsewhere? Then what might that look like? So I started talking to David Brear, who I think you’ve had on the show, who at the time was, led digital banking for Gartner. And we’ve had loads of good conversations, I really respected David. So when he said that he was thinking of leaving as well, in order to start something new. A few people got together and said, well, maybe we can do something really interesting in professional services.
Peter Renton 08:19
What are you doing then today? How do you describe 11:FS and who you’re working with, primarily?
Jason Bates 08:26
For the part of the business that that I’m most interested in, I’d say that we’re venture builders. Ultimately, there’s a transitionary period that retail banking, retail financial services is going through. I always talk about the fact that we’ve moved from analog to digitized banking. So we took all of those statements, mandates, forms, and put them onto a screen. But we’ve not really seen digital banking, which is really where you take the operating model that used to work before digital and say, well, actually, you know, digital isn’t just another channel, it’s a different operating model. It allows you to deliver real time, intelligent, contextual services, rather than just be an alternative communications channel to the phone line, a letter, or visiting a branch. It’s fundamentally different. And so when you if you can see it that way, and really look at how Spotify is different from a music company, or how people get news now, and not through a digitized newspaper, through a different mechanism, because digital is different. So if that’s true, then the question is then what do the incumbents do because they digitized what came before, they’ve cut costs out of the business. But the question is now, what will digital financial services be and how will that work? And that’s really where I spend my day to day time with most of the big banks around the world who are really looking at how do they bridge that that chasm between digitized banking and digital banking?
Peter Renton 10:01
That’s interesting, an interesting way you put that so. So when you look at the whole fintech landscape, or the digital banking landscape, shall we say, we’ve come a long way, right? We haven’t…It’s not like it was even five years ago, where I think we’re delivering products that are fundamentally different. But I’m curious to get your perspective on where you think the most interesting innovation is coming from today?
Jason Bates 10:27
Well, I actually don’t think – I think we’re scratching the surfaces so far, I’ve recently started to think about the retail financial services landscape as being split into four layers. At the bottom, you’ve got the rails, you know, the way that money and risk and data travels across the world. And whether it’s democratization of access to payment systems, the traditional ones, whether it’s MasterCard, and Visa, are really pushing to let a variety of players get connected to their systems, or whether it’s crypto, there’s a lot going on in that rails layer as to how that information moves around the world. So there’s interesting innovations there. Then you’ve got the product layer above. And you know, that’s the net interest, margin fees and charges, maturity transformation, like that’s the banking layer, where all of the deposits and lending kind of come together. And there with, it’s still a a super fat expensive layer to run compared to what it could be. So there’s so much still to bring out of that in order to, and new products to make that fit in with where we’re at. So and that’s the kind of cost cutting, you know, ETFs are just bits in terms of investment. But what about banking? What about lending? What about all of these things? How do you increase that efficiency. And then on top of the rails on top of the product, I think we’ve got the services layer. And that’s where we’re just starting to get into, it’s that private banking, for the mass market, corporate transaction banking, for the small business, it’s the layer in which we actually do work for people, because digital can do work, it can take algorithms and AI and everything else. And actually, with the products rails beneath it, provide service to people, the CFO in your pocket, the family office for you know, for a retail bank account.
Jason Bates 12:15
So I think there’s a lot in, there’s an awful lot. And that’s the layer I’m most interested in, how do we actually do work for people? And we’re starting to move into that from our retail banking products, but not quite yet. And then the fourth lesson is the journeys layer. So we’ve gone rails, product, services, journeys, how does how to retail banking products and services fit in with end to end journeys, whether that’s buying a new house, point of sale lending insurance, like things that don’t belong in the banking app, but actually belong at the point of need. So I could point to any of those layers. And then there are interesting players that are starting to connect together, you know, maybe Apple is offering something new on the iPhone, where you can see your statements and balance, that that’s built on a Goldman Sachs account, built on a MasterCard rails, like, suddenly it’s not monolithic providers fighting each other. But actually groups are starting to pull together these services and journeys.
Peter Renton 13:11
I want to sort of get your perspective on the, the traditional banks and the fintech banks in the UK. How do you think they’re doing? I mean, you said, we’ve really only scratched the surface. But the apps today are, they’re user friendly, they’re easy to use, for the most part, they’ve got lots of product capabilities. What’s good, and what do we need to work on?
Jason Bates 13:34
If you go out and ask individuals, small companies, retail banking clients, customers? What do you think about your banking? Like, would you like it to do anything else? They say no, like, because banking does banking stuff. And ultimately, the job that is always done is keep my money safe. Tell me how much I’ve got. Let me transact, show me a list of those transactions, pay me interest, let me borrow, you know, keep the financial system safe, protect against criminality, all of those things. But t that’s a fairly low bar. That’s a product layer kind of bar as to what’s going on. And so we can get better and better at those things. But the question is for these, for the services bit, how what what would what would clients have happen there? And so in the early days of Monzo, I’d go out and say to people, you’re going to take a couple of months off, I will look after your finances while you’re gone. I’m not gonna do anything clever. But I’ll just look after it. You know, what would I do? And they say, Well, I guess it starts on payday. Check if I’ve been paid or if I haven’t. And you think Well, that’s interesting, because because banks will tell you if a transaction has happened, but they don’t really differentiate between pay day which is a which is arguably the most important transaction that might hit your account and every other transaction, and they probably tell you if the transactions happen, did they tell you if it didn’t happen even though you’re expecting it? Yeah, probably not. Well, then what have you got? Well, then I line up my direct debits and standing orders over the next few days. And why do you do that? Well, so I know you know how much money I’ve got to live on, because that’s what my committed bills and my got my quarterly bills and my annual bills, and all kinds of things that hit at different times. And, you know, I’m screwed if on, if in July, I pay an annual car insurance with a quarter electricity bill and something else.
Jason Bates 15:24
So I, you know, I have to keep an eye on that. And you kind of think there’s a lot of jobs there as well. And then they say, well, and then I’ve got my glide path to the end of the month, then I’ve got my discretionary spend, and how do you manage that, and back in Monzo days, people would say, in the early days of Monzo, well, I guess I take it out of the ATM, or I try and mentally put some aside, or I spend on a credit card, but then have to be really careful because I then, you know, repay that 45/60 days later. And so the, you know, the big challenges, the big jobs still to do, are really in that behavioral aspect of how banks handle money for people. And I’d argue that actually, the success of Monzo was, was largely off of the fact that it created a discretionary spending card, that wasn’t really a financial product at the time. Real time balance, metadata, instant notifications of transactions, that was all fairly new at the time. And by having a separation between your main bank account where your bill money was, and this lovely cute, hot coral card, that was your fun money, that actually provided value for people. So I guess I’m trying to show you that there are, while the product layer jobs are well understood and well known, and we polish those, it’s actually the fact that a current account, a checking account, is really the place where your paycheck comes in, and 100 of tiny payments come out, paying off debt, putting money into the future, putting money aside to have fun with, paying bills and commitments. And most people have to do that on their own. Their bank doesn’t help them with that. And I think that’s where the at least for retail banking, whether, you know, the next challenges are how do we make intuitive systems, financial systems that actually help people better manage their money? And that’s for retail customer. Now, what are we talking about the small business? What are we talking about with larger businesses? How does that that breakout?
Peter Renton 17:22
I can see, there’s still plenty of work to do there. So I want to switch gears a little bit. And I’ve read about this innovation philosophy called jobs-to-be-done that you are a proponent of. Could you explain what that philosophy is? And how much of its being used in fintech and banking today?
Jason Bates 17:22
Sure. So it follows on I guess, from the earlier conversation. If the big change from digitized to digital is a move from the product and distribution paradigm that we all know and love, you know, banks, manufacture products and distribute them through channels, if actually that was the old world, and the new world is really about intelligent services to do these jobs for people, sure they wrap the products that sit on the rails and all of that kind of thing. You’re still making money in that area. But if this is really about the services, then the question is, what services and for whom? Because I’ve just spoken about some of the conversations you might have, where you ask people about banking, and they say it’s fine. And then you ask them about the work they have to do. And they pull out all of these jobs. And so Silicon Valley for a really long time, outside of fintech has had this view that really, to create amazing products, you’re doing a job for a person, you’re creating a service outcome. And so there’s a methodology around jobs-to-be-done . This idea that in a series of interviews, we can pull out what these kind of atomic outcomes are that you’re looking for. And then we can do interesting card sorts, we’d look at how important it is to you, how well served it is, and starts to make some interesting clusters and helps to drive this product service strategy. So it’s really a quest, it really follows on from the idea of we’re moving from products to intelligent services. And if that’s the case, then how do you specify what services you should build? And that’s really what this this methodology is about.
Peter Renton 19:22
How’s it being used in fintech and banking today?
Jason Bates 19:25
Well, it’s a great scorecard to start off with, because while you might look at an innovation function, or go and talk to a bank, and you’ll say, You know what projects you’ve you’ve got on and they’ll tell you, quite often they’re technology driven. So they’ll say, you know, a few years ago, they’ll say, oh, chatbot, we need a chatbot for something. And you say, Well, what is that really doing for people? So flip that on its head rather than starting with technology and saying, Where can we apply it? Let’s start with the end customers and say, Actually, what are this list of 50 jobs that they really need to do? I need to make it to the end of the month, I need to put money aside for an emergency fund, I need to do all of these things. And then if we see which are important and which aren’t, it gives us a prioritization matrix in order to say, well, these new technologies that are coming along, can we apply them in this way? So for our clients, for 11:FS clients and for fintechs, there’s a lot of focus really on what these jobs-to-be-done are in order to provide this scorecard for what we should really be building in order to be successful in the market.
Peter Renton 20:31
Okay, so we’re 20 plus minutes into this interview, and we haven’t mentioned AI yet, and we’re talking about innovation in finance. So what are your thoughts on AI? Is really about the specific use cases? I mean, where do you come down on that?
Jason Bates 20:43
Following on from that last answer, if it’s not about the technology, but where the technology can be applied to. And if we’re really looking at this services layer, providing the private banker for the mass market, then obviously, AI fits in there. If it can actually look across your finances, see what’s going on, predict what might happen in the future, and actually guide you towards that, then that’s fabulous. But the nuance that I’d add is that you can’t take one person’s let’s say someone’s just using one checking account in order to run their, their financial life, they’re being paid into it. And they’re, they’re making these 100 payments a month that come out in a variety of ways. Getting an AI interface to start highlighting things to them doesn’t work so well, because you will really need like an underlying structure that it can work on. So if I say, if I tell the AI, I’ve got this card, my Monzo card for discretionary funds, my Barclays account that runs my committed spend, I’ve got a savings account over here, I’ve got a credit card over here, I’ve got my AMEX, MasterCard, and a few other things, I’ve got a joint account with my wife, pocket with money with my kids. Now we’ve got a structure that AI can help me manage. And actually, I think that that envelope budgeting style thing that your grandparents did, we’re going to see a resurgence of. And actually a great way of doing that is to start to apply AI to it to help you manage it in a way that you can see what’s going on.
Peter Renton 22:19
Interesting. Okay, so I want to ask about what your thoughts are on the state of UK fintech today. I mean, we’ve got the big three, two of which you are a founding member of, Monzo, Starling, and Revolut, I’d like to get a sense of those three. And then beyond the big three, shall we say, what’s the state of fintech in the UK right now?
Jason Bates 22:41
Well, I mean, Monzo, Starling, and Revolut have all been massively successful in different ways. You know, Monzo is massive in the personal banking space, growing very quickly. I understand that they’re, they say they’ll be profitable this year, although I don’t have any inside information on that. Starling has done amazingly well in business banking. Revolut, even without a banking license has spread across Europe and beyond, to start to aggregate together a variety of products. So it’s almost three separate strategies that show that you can drive costs out of the business by being a digital business, as well as offering superior customer service, according to the latest NPS scores for the UK in order to drive things along. And arguably, you know, the, the FCA, the PRA the the Competition and Markets Authority in the UK, really gave these new banking licenses to drive innovation and make the big players take notice and start to innovate themselves. And I think you can see that. I think everyone’s improving along that digital perspective.
Jason Bates 22:44
In terms of the rest of fintech, obviously, we’re not in Europe anymore, which causes a problem. But we have amazing infrastructure, amazing talent, we’ve got these big fintechs. We’ve got open banking, and we’ve got a government that’s pushing things along into open finance. So I think it’s going to be a really interesting few years. I know everyone has, has realized that there’s no free money anymore, that there’s definitely a reduction in the amount of capital and VC investment. But often that leads to some of the biggest, most successful companies starting because it cuts down the noise. You have to be a, you know, a really fantastic fintech in order to raise money and grow now, and I see that, did I see Prosper, a new wealth player has just run a massive crowdfund in the UK in order to drop costs out of wealth for retail customers. So I do think there’s some really interesting, some really interesting businesses coming along. I think it’s been a tough time for everyone. But it’s often when the best players are born.
Peter Renton 24:55
I know you also, you do business in the US and would love to kind of get your perspective on the US market. And sort of maybe you can contrast it with with the UK. So obviously, some of the challenges are the same, some of them are different, but how do you kind of feel the the US is doing when you compare it to the UK?
Jason Bates 25:17
I mean, you know, 10 times better than I do, but in my small amount of exposure, it’s just such a phenomenally different market. You know, is there 10,000 deposit takers or something in US, 5000 credit union, 5000 credit unions, small mom and pop shop banks. It’s the entirely opposite end of the spectrum from the UK where we have such a small number, that new banking licenses made sense. And you’ve got to think there’s some bloodbath going to happen in the mid market in the US, because how can that many deposit takers and providers of retail financial services really survive in this space? So I find that really interesting that actually, if you’re, you know, a mid sized credit union, across a few states in the US, it’s a, it’s a really interesting time. So what do you do? You know, what do you do against the, the massive players now against the backdrop, you’ve got, of course, all of the regulatory hurdles, and state, federal, all of that stuff, together with a difficult infrastructure, you know, you don’t have the level of sounds wrong to say sophistication. But being an a much smaller country, the fact that we’ve had chip and PIN, and tap and pay,and a variety of things for a very long time in the UK, combined with open banking means it’s a lot easier in order to build here than it has been traditionally. But I mean, what what’s your view?
Peter Renton 26:48
I mean the UK, I always loved, I love visiting London. Because I feel like things like things that are just kind of getting going in as I first went in fintech, it’s been almost 10 years since I did my, my first trip to London. And so I’ve seen it kind of things that were commonplace, like tap and pay. I mean, that sort of thing was nowhere in the US 10 years ago, and it was everywhere in the UK. So I feel like the US, US takes its time. And we have feel like the regulatory process is just such a barrier to, to fintech innovation here. With the US you’ve got 5/6/7 different regulators, plus state regulators, where in the UK, you’ve really got one or two that you’re dealing with. And it’s, you know, people talk about going to London is like going to New York, and Silicon Valley and Washington DC all rolled into one. I think that’s been the advantage. But despite that, I mean, obviously, that both countries have great entrepreneurial spirit, and I think, whereas the UK, I think has done, has led the world in many areas, you know, like open banking is a perfect example. Right? UK mandated it really early. And, you know, it took a while to get going. But it’s been quite successful. Whereas here, you know, we’ve just now got around to actually creating open banking rules, five, six years after the UK. But in the meantime, we’ve got this open banking ecosystem that’s really developed by the market, that it’s not necessarily one is worse than the other, or that one is better than the other. But I think there’s been a it’s been a different evolution. And yeah, the entrepreneurial spirit is strong. I mean, there’s tons of new companies being started. I’m amazed, after 10 years in the space, how many great new ideas are still coming out of the woodwork.
Jason Bates 28:32
Absolutely.
Peter Renton 28:33
Anyway, we were chatting before we hit record here, and you don’t like to do this, but I’m gonna put you on the spot here. Because we’re, this is gonna be released in mid December, as we look through to the next year, what are some of the things that you’re looking at for 2024? As far as trends to watch?
Jason Bates 28:51
Well, we’ve already seen a couple of AI chatbots come to, come to market. In the UK, a lot of the smaller players, I don’t think we’re going to see see it from the big banks, I think the regulatory risk is just too great. But I do think we’re going to see some personal financial management meets ChatGPT plays that will come to market and we’re going to start to see what those look like. Because arguably, you know, as you pointed out, that is the big disruptor, not in fintech, but just for everything, everywhere, globally. And I honestly think that will be the next tsunami to hit. You know, we’ve moved from digitized to digital, but beyond that into the AI world, into having a personal financial manager, I think could could change everything in the next, maybe not in the next year. But in the next three to five.
Jason Bates 29:56
I, like many digitally savvy people, still they’ll have to hack together a variety of financial products in order to manage my life, you know, a variety of accounts, a variety of providers that I move money between in order to make all of that work. And so I’m most excited to get to a point where I don’t have to do that anymore. And providers get to the point where they’re, they’re doing that for me. And that’s what I’m most excited about, this services layer, this personal financial system, that does mean I can manage my discretionary account can oversee my aging parents finances, can handle my son’s pocket money with ease, can send money into the future in terms of savings can pay off debts, can see it all. And actually, you know, get that notification to say my AIMEX bill is due I don’t have enough money in my checking account, would it? Would it? Would you like me to move some out of my savings? By the way, you know, there’s, you’re going to Japan next year, yen, is at a five time…five year low. Do you fancy buying some now in order to do something later? Like, I think we’re getting to the science fiction level of personal financial advice. And, and that’s what I want, like, as a geek in this stuff, as a, as a user. I want that. And I want, it’s possible. It’s doable, and we’ve seen this movement into it, but that’s what I’m most excited about.
Peter Renton 31:01
You know, when you look at the next three to five years, what are you most excited about? What do you think that has the most potential for impact?
Peter Renton 31:27
Interesting. Well, I want it as well. So we’ll wait and see how it goes. But it’s exciting times, exciting times in fintech. Anyway. Jason, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Appreciate it.
Peter Renton 31:38
My pleasure.
Peter Renton 31:40
Well, I hope you enjoyed the show. Thank you so much for listening. Please go ahead and give the show a review on the podcast platform of your choice and go tell your friends and colleagues about it. Anyway, on that note, I will sign off I very much appreciate you listening, and I’ll catch you next time. Bye.
